Redeeming Law Discussion Part II: Chapters 5-9

[Mike Schutt]

Between now and Thursday night we'll kick around the themes of chapters 5 through 9. There is plenty to talk about; in some ways it is a general section-- basic thinking on theology, Christian community, spiritual disciplines applied to lawyers.

Was any of it useful or thought provoking?

Is any one of these concepts-- unity, community, truth-- more challenging to students than to lawyers, or more challenging in your practice than it was in school?

Did anything jump out at you that you found helpful, convicting, or just plain wrong?

[Britton Weimer]

I enjoyed the discussion in chapter 8 on vocation as our collaboration with God's creative activity in the world. Quoting Luther, "God continues his creative work on earth where man's vocation lies." (page 141)

IMO, our goal should be to honor God by doing excellent and innovative legal work, no matter how mundane the task. Over time, with God's help, we develop our skills, our reputations, and our usefulness to others. "Do you see a man skilled in his work? He shall not remain obscure, but shall stand before kings." And, even if we never handle dramatic cases, we can honor God by being attorneys that clients, attorneys and judges know they can rely upon.

[Dan Kim]

I definitely enjoyed reviewing these particular chapters since they go into the "meat" of what I always like to critique most... the application/solution part! I really enjoyed how Mike laid out the MOST important thing first: INTEGRITY and the many facets of what that particular word means.

Specifically I think the line about how integrity often times means "consistency" -- doing the right thing in all aspects habitually was one of the most insightful things. Certainly, it is true that while we strive to be perfect like Jesus, we will fail but what we do consistently reveals our character. Sorry if that is poorly worded. Mike also correctly points out that lawyers and law students often times lived unfulfilled CHRISTIAN lives because they lack integrity.

As for who these concepts are more challenging for I would say it's almost impossible to gauge. They face a different set of stressers... granted they are of the same type. For students the challenges of unity, community and truth are probably more apparent (so many are able to place a finger around it but not at it) but the stress of trying to get to that degree and J-O-B, job coupled with the fact that the law school environment (non christian at least) is not the easiest place to ask questions related to faith and law make it difficult for students to elevate their thinking. As for attys, those concepts get easily swept aside with family, billable hours, and the stress of their time being gobbled up by "life." If I had to say I would say the law student is easier to reach or are more apt to listen to the concepts in this book since they are still asking questions. Habit have yet to be formed.

The thing that jumped out at me most in these chapters is the get off the couch and do it exhortation of ch 9 (p155). Changing routine can be sooo hard Mike (and others!). How does one do it?? For me it's really about preaching the gospel to myself... taking in the grace and mercy of God and knowing that without being able to see and experience God in the everyday I will never know him and myself fully. A practical thing I do to get there is to do exactly what Mike suggests, turn everything off! We live in a noise culture and often times I find that I can't stand silence. Sad, i know. Also, Mike could you address more the idea of proverbs 1, specifically it's quite apparent that at heart we cannot begin to do these things until our fear of God replaces our fear of man.

sorry for the ramble. busy day at the office.

[Brett Henson]

I found Ch. 7's emphasis on the theology of the trinity/community life to be indicative of the experience I've had as a student leader with CLS. There's a lot of talk in churches about how the gospel should be relational, but often without a theological basis for why this is needed. The basis for koinonia fellowship, the kind of community found in the early church in which believers "held everything in common", is possible because we acknowledge a similar, but more perfect, relationship between God the father, son, and holy spirit. The harmony of the trinity should be the basis for our community as believers.

I've had the opportunity to see how this works in the past year. Our chapter supported a local Christian mission through an on campus fundraiser. Because the mission was started by an immigration attorney who works in the Dominican Republic, we were able to involve some other groups who were also interested. After the event, I learned a team from the church I attend would be taking a trip with the same mission. It was refreshing to see that our efforts as students to support the mission were being supported by the local church, and vice versa.

[Mike Schutt]

This is the age-old question regarding "jurisdiction," isn't it?

We go as absolutely far as we are authorized! We go all the way. Our task is to bring all things fully under the Lordship of the Redeemer himself. Of course, some people might think or argue that this involves theocratic government, which of course it doesn't. The church has its jurisdiction and the state its God-delegated role. The state doesn't legislate church attendance, punish wrongful thoughts, or do "everything" that is good or redemptive. It does what it is permitted to do and no more within its jurisdiction-- justice -- which as I see it is to punish those who do wrong and reward those who do right. That is the redemptive task of the state.

There's certainly more nuance than that, but it's not a matter of "how redemptive can we be?" (in my view), it's a matter of "what authority do we have to act?"

Anna E Lineberger said:

The John 3:16 story of your friend hit the nail on the head regarding many American Christian's perception of its connection with their everyday work. Also the "call to missions is not just in Africa" -- so true! How many can relate to "blooming where we are planted" - I'm assuming most of us are Type-A planners and often forget to think of *today* as opposed to planning/preparing for the next step in our calling. In my experience I’ve had to intentionally focus on the known - where God has me now (law school) - and trust God for the unknown (summers, post-graduation) which fortunately has both reduced stress and the difficulty in school.

I have one potentially "hot-button" issue: page 144 it cites Wolters... "our cultural task is a redemptive one – working to direct people, institutions and entities toward the king." In relation to creating legislation, litigating/judging cases, etc. how far do we go with that? I know Mike said 1-2 inches we’re called in… but even within those 1-2 inches, what would you say that looks like?

[Mike Schutt]

I think this is right on the button, like Anna's good word that we do what we're called to do right here, right now. Do the work you've been given and go from there!

Britton Weimer said:

I enjoyed the discussion in chapter 8 on vocation as our collaboration with God's creative activity in the world. Quoting Luther, "God continues his creative work on earth where man's vocation lies." (page 141)

IMO, our goal should be to honor God by doing excellent and innovative legal work, no matter how mundane the task. Over time, with God's help, we develop our skills, our reputations, and our usefulness to others. "Do you see a man skilled in his work? He shall not remain obscure, but shall stand before kings." And, even if we never handle dramatic cases, we can honor God by being attorneys that clients, attorneys and judges know they can rely upon.

[Mike Schutt]

Good stuff, Dan. Can you elaborate more on the "fear of man"/fear of God issue? I think it's key.

I don't lay it out in the book in those terms, but I think you're right-- much of what we're talking about comes down to our ability to put aside the hindrances of sin and do what we're supposed to do.

Dan Kim said:

I definitely enjoyed reviewing these particular chapters since they go into the "meat" of what I always like to critique most... the application/solution part! I really enjoyed how Mike laid out the MOST important thing first: INTEGRITY and the many facets of what that particular word means.

Specifically I think the line about how integrity often times means "consistency" -- doing the right thing in all aspects habitually was one of the most insightful things. Certainly, it is true that while we strive to be perfect like Jesus, we will fail but what we do consistently reveals our character. Sorry if that is poorly worded. Mike also correctly points out that lawyers and law students often times lived unfulfilled CHRISTIAN lives because they lack integrity.

As for who these concepts are more challenging for I would say it's almost impossible to gauge. They face a different set of stressers... granted they are of the same type. For students the challenges of unity, community and truth are probably more apparent (so many are able to place a finger around it but not at it) but the stress of trying to get to that degree and J-O-B, job coupled with the fact that the law school environment (non christian at least) is not the easiest place to ask questions related to faith and law make it difficult for students to elevate their thinking. As for attys, those concepts get easily swept aside with family, billable hours, and the stress of their time being gobbled up by "life." If I had to say I would say the law student is easier to reach or are more apt to listen to the concepts in this book since they are still asking questions. Habit have yet to be formed.

The thing that jumped out at me most in these chapters is the get off the couch and do it exhortation of ch 9 (p155). Changing routine can be sooo hard Mike (and others!). How does one do it?? For me it's really about preaching the gospel to myself... taking in the grace and mercy of God and knowing that without being able to see and experience God in the everyday I will never know him and myself fully. A practical thing I do to get there is to do exactly what Mike suggests, turn everything off! We live in a noise culture and often times I find that I can't stand silence. Sad, i know. Also, Mike could you address more the idea of proverbs 1, specifically it's quite apparent that at heart we cannot begin to do these things until our fear of God replaces our fear of man.

sorry for the ramble. busy day at the office.

[Mike Schutt]

Thanks for sharing this, Brett.

Brett Henson said:

I found Ch. 7's emphasis on the theology of the trinity/community life to be indicative of the experience I've had as a student leader with CLS. There's a lot of talk in churches about how the gospel should be relational, but often without a theological basis for why this is needed. The basis for koinonia fellowship, the kind of community found in the early church in which believers "held everything in common", is possible because we acknowledge a similar, but more perfect, relationship between God the father, son, and holy spirit. The harmony of the trinity should be the basis for our community as believers.

I've had the opportunity to see how this works in the past year. Our chapter supported a local Christian mission through an on campus fundraiser. Because the mission was started by an immigration attorney who works in the Dominican Republic, we were able to involve some other groups who were also interested. After the event, I learned a team from the church I attend would be taking a trip with the same mission. It was refreshing to see that our efforts as students to support the mission were being supported by the local church, and vice versa.